Posts by Joe Grundy

26

Jehovah’s Witnesses are Taught to Lie but to then Lie about Lying

by Terry in

jehovah’s witnesses are taught to lie but to then lie about lying.

first off, let’s define what it means to tell a lie.

i prefer the definition offered by aristotle way back in 4th century b.c.e.

Joe Grundy

(I never was a JW).

This is not to diminish WT lies, rather to show that they're not alone.

William Lane Craig is a famous evangelical apologist/snake oil salesman. I came across this clip today - it's worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziUxbNsDo5Q

3

Lourdes, Bigorre, Pyrenees, France.

by Joe Grundy in

(i never was a jw).. this topic occurred to me randomly.

i don't know whether any/many posters heer have visited.

the region is beautiful but marred, imho, by the scar that is lourdes.

This topic occurred to me randomly. I don't know whether any/many posters heer have visited. The region is beautiful but marred, IMHO, by the scar that is Lourdes. And that's because, and only because, of religion.

About 15 years ago I visited the area with ex-wife #1 and our French friends. They were practising and believing RCs and this was a 'must see' place to visit. We went along out of interest. I have never seen anything like it.

More than 7,000,000 people visit Lourdes annually. It was a small village until 1858 when a local 14 year old poor peasant girl had the first of 18 visions of the virgin Mary. People started to come hhoping for miraculous cures. Today, it has more hotels than any city in France outside Paris.

I found it an incredibly depressing place. The town streets are full of 'tat' shops selling stuff like hollow plastic 'Mary' bottles you can fill with 'holy water', battery-operated 'flashing light' plaques of Mary, and so on. The square was filled with wheelchairs and trolley stretcher beds containg the hopeful, some of whom had travelled thousands of miles hoping for a miracle. Some pilgrims crawled on hands and knees round the 'stations of the cross' route.

It was deluded religious belief on steroids. Xw#1 and I were by this time atheists and found it hard to comprehend. I confess that the sacred grotto was empty and deserted and we found the time and place for a quick copulate. I put that down to the sun and the wine.

Our French friends (esp. the wife) were completely convinced by the place - she felt that some of her undefined symptoms were relieved by her pilgrimage, and it would have been unkind to challenge this.

I understand that there is a large standing medical and scientific committee at Lourdes which investigates 'miracle' claims. So far, I think, they've pronounced about 60 cases as 'miracles'.

This place has to be seen to be believed (or not).

As I understand it, some/many/most JWs believe in divine intervention and/or miracles - anything from finding their car keys to a cure from cancer. I wonder how some of them would react if you transported them from Smallville USA and plonked them down in Lourdes, where they could share their experiences with 7,000,000 other hopefuls?

Just a random thought, as I said.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

Terry:

I never was a JW, and I bow to your superior knowledge of them and their history.

I am an atheist because all of my research has led me to the conclusion that all claims by all religions fail when subjected to the scrutiny or reaosn and evidence.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

Terry:

I don't think we're at odds here. My point was that all religions, all sects and divisions within those religions, seem to have changed, adapted, fiddled with, their doctrines and beliefs throughout history. One of the strongest examples is Islam, which claimed (uniquely, I think) to be the final revelation. Didn't turn out like that.

To me (a personal view) any deity which inspired a religion but couldn't or didn't maintain the original message is hardly a deity at all.

To expand on my point about the relative 'newness' of religions: I live in West Wales. Nearby is St Davids cathedral, about 1000 years old (king Alfred 'the Great') was involved there. It was a 'holy site' about 1400 years ago. You can see the effects of the Reformation (a relatively recent 500 years ago). Also St Govan's chapel (800 years old) built on the site of St Govan's rockface cleft hermitage(1400 years ago) (was he Sir Gawain of Round Table fame?). The local churches in my town are 800+ years old, so went through the Reformation.

There is no doubt that many local religious sites pre-date the Roman invasion and were pagan/druidic. There is still a noteable pagan/wicca presence here.

In my small town there are memorial sites where 'heretics' of different persuasions were burned to death.

May I recommend that you read the 'Shardlake' novels by C J Sansom? Tremendous read, and sets the scene for Reformation-era England.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

"They don't have fixed teachings because it's a way of weeding out the disloyal ones. Only those who are truly loyal will remain."

I think that there's a lot to be said for that. Somewhat like Orwell's '1984'. If you betray that your thinking is not absolutely in line with the latest thinking or position, you're marked as actually or potentially disloyal.

5

31

"Ones"

by Joe Grundy in

(i never was a dub).. this is something which has intrigued me for a while.

i don't know whether it's dub-speak, or us-speak.. it's the use of the word 'ones' as in 'interested ones', 'worldly ones', 'disfellowshipped ones' and so on and so on.. in the 'normal world' we would probably use the word 'people'.. thoughts?.

Joe Grundy

Thanks for the comments. I wasn't sure whether this was a typical US English useage or particular dub-speak.

I realise, of course, that jw publications in English are written in the US and there will be differences. (Actually, WT should realise that presenting English language publications in US English may well turn off some Brits). I suppose that dubs will make an effort to use the language from the publications to show how dub they are.

WT is not alone in this of course. I was a cop for 30 years and I still cringe when I hear or read some police press releases. E.g. 'Police are looking for a 'male person' . No they're not, they're looking for a 'man'.

I am now a man of a certain age. 20 years ago when my son was 15 he would laugh if I tried to use 'teen speak'. Now, current teens would laugh at him if he tried to use it. (Revenge is sweet!).

Cults sometimes reveal themselves by their language. Normal thinking people tend to think 'why are they talking like that?'.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

I think that JWs, like Mormons and others, portray/show their origins as relatively new religions from a relatively new country.

I have some thoughts on that.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

I think that you're thinking too narrowly here - and too recently.

Some examples:

The original sect was (IIRC) a jewish messianic apocalyptic sect. Was changed to include gentiles and allow non-adherence to jewish laws.

Major differences between 'originals?' and gnostics.

Adaptations to facilitate adoption by roman empire.

Partial agreement of beliefs not until 4th century - but other branches/sects held to their own views.

Great Schism about 1000 years ago between RC church and Orthodoxy (still exists and keenly felt). Orthodox churches believe RC church left the truth.

Divisions within Orthodox church re autonomy and within RC church re papal succession.

And all of that's before we get to the precursors to protestantism, 500 or so years ago.

It's a similar situation in many religions. Buddhism, for example ( a much older religion) and islam (a much newer one).

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

"As you might expect of utterances of an Almighty Deity, no changes are necessary!"

The fact that changes have been made might lead one to question the existence of an almighty deity and the nature of such utterances - in relation to all religions.

29

Diddling, adjusting, changing Doctrines? Why not leave it alone?

by Terry in

i have kept on asking myself why the jw's put targets on themselves by constant diddling with their own doctrines?

why not leave it alone?.

mainstream christianity has fixed teachings.

Joe Grundy

"Mainstream Christianity has FIXED teachings."

I don't think so. The various christian sects and divisions have (as I understand it) a near 2000 year history of being at variance about their teachings and of changing, refining and adapting their teachings.

And what do you include as 'mainstream'?